Sondage

Quelle est la partie du Silmarillion que vous préférez?

Ainulindalë
16% - 11
Valaquenta
7% - 5
Quenta Silmarillion
48% - 32
Akallabeth
13% - 9
Les anneaux de pouvoir
13% - 9

Total : 66

#41 10/03/2009 15:11:09

Foradan
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Date d'inscription: 13/05/2002
Messages: 12210
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Je suis toujours surpris de voir apparaître tant de documents "inédits" qui se contredisent parfois : on le sait qu'il y a des brouillons, des versions réécrites et qu'il a fallu faire un choix éditorial pour publier le Silmarillion.
En prenant d'autres sources, on peut réécrire l'histoire du premier Age de manière bien différente.

Maintenant, quelle est la légitimité de cet ouvrage, en quoi les éléments décortiqués sont-ils vraiment discordants avec le travail de Christopher Tolkien, qui a le profil le plus à même d'être l'exécuteur littéraire de son père ?

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#42 10/03/2009 15:14:58

Gillossen
Spécialiste en résurrection
Lieu: Entre deux chapitres
Date d'inscription: 20/04/2002
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

J'ai trouvé cette interview de l'auteur. smile

Tolkien Library a écrit:

TL: Could you please tell us a little about yourself?
DK: Sure! I have what some people consider a rather unusual set of interests. Professionally, I am a civil rights attorney specializing in representing employees in discrimination and harassment cases here in Santa Cruz, California, where I live. But I also teach and perform West African percussion music. And, of course, I have been a Tolkien enthusiast for over 30 years.     Once Upon a Time in the North by Philip Pullman

TL: Some might know you under the name "Voronwe_the_Faithful", why did you choose this nickname?

DK: When I first joined a Tolkien discussion board, I wanted to choose a nickname that I felt reflected my personality. Service to others has always been very important to me, and I felt that that was well represented by the way that Voronwë faithfully guided Tuor to Gondolin in the tale "Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin," printed in _Unfinished Tales_. Also, Voronwë's descriptions of the bright stars "upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside," and of the willows of Nan-tathren, have long been among my favorite passages in Tolkien's works.

TL: You are the author of 'Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion' could you tell us what this book is about?

DK: It is an attempt to trace how Christopher Tolkien created the published _Silmarillion_ (with the help of Guy Kay), from the unfinished works left behind by his father. Christopher himself made this effort possible by publishing the bulk of those unfinished works. I went through _The Silmarillion_ paragraph by paragraph, comparing the text with the constituent source texts printed in _The History of Middle-earth_, as well as in _Unfinished Tales_, _The Children of Húrin_, and in one case, Tolkien’s letters. I then made an effort to explore how the editorial decisions influenced the final product. I can honestly say that some of the results were quite surprising. You can read a more detailed description of the book at www.arda-reconstructed.com.

TL: What surprises me is that this book originally started as a thread on a Tolkien board, when and why did the idea come of making it into a book?

DK: Yes, that is quite true; it started at as a discussion at thehalloffire.net, the Tolkien board that I run. Someone asked the question "who actually wrote _The Silmarillion_" and we came up with the idea of systematically comparing the book to the source materials that were available. But when push came to shove, I was the only one who followed through.. Over time, as I persisted through the project, more and more people began telling me that they felt that the information that I was gathering was valuable, and should be shared with a wider audience. When I finished going through the text, I decided to go ahead and prepare a manuscript to submit to publishers. Eventually, the Lehigh University Press agreed to publish it.

TL: Did you have any access to unpublished documents?

DK: I did not. Any relevant unpublished documents are either housed in the Bodleian Library at Oxford, or are still in Christopher Tolkien's possession. Being an attorney in California with a busy practice, I would not have been able to take the time to travel to England or France to review these documents, even in the unlikely event that I had been granted permission to do so. And truthfully doing so would mostly have involved duplicating the extensive work that Christopher has already done so admirably. The fact that I was able to trace so much of the published text to the source materials available to me shows that to be true. Honestly, I believe that the most valuable unpublished source material that was not available to me is the information stored in Christopher's mind. Perhaps, however, there will be an opportunity for a follow-up work by either myself or some other Tolkien scholar with access to the unpublished documents.

TL: How did you get interested in the Silmarillion anyways?

DK: I first encountered _The Silmarillion_ as a young man in my twenties. I had already been a big fan of _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_ since I was a child, but this was something else altogether. From the first words of the _Ainulindalë_ I was hooked. I had never encountered anything quite like it, and I can honestly say that it has had more influence on me then any other single piece of literature. I proceeded to devour _Unfinished Tales_ and each volume of _The History of Middle-earth_, with ever-increasing wonder at the true scope of Tolkien's creation.

TL: What special qualifications do you have for making this study? What makes you different from your colleagues?

DK: I don't know that I can say that I have "special qualifications" other than simply the persistence to stick with it. Certainly as an attorney I have a lot experience in engaging in very detailed research, and in applying facts to make an argument. But I think the main qualification that I have, and the main reason why I was able to persevere, is simply that I love the material so much.

TL: What is the big difference between your book and other books like the history of Middle-earth?

DK: Well, _The History of Middle-earth_ books trace in amazing detail the history of J.R.R. Tolkien's work creating his legendarium. But it really only gives a few hints here and there about Christopher's work in creating the published _Silmarillion_. There really is not any work comparable to _Arda Reconstructed_ that I am aware of. Charles Noad has an excellent essay in the book _Tolkien's Legendarium_ called "On the Construction of 'The Silmarillion'" which delves into the subject to some extent. And Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's massive _J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide_ has entries on the individual chapters of _The Silmarillion_ which give brief overviews of the source material used to create them. But neither explores the subject to nearly the depth that I have done, and neither attempts to look in detail at how the editorial decisions affected the final product.

TL: To write this book, did you work alone or did you have help of other Tolkien scholars?

DK: I mostly worked alone. I did get some very helpful suggestions and advice from a few Tolkien scholars, including Don Anger, Merlin DeTardo, Bill Hicklin and Jason Fisher, as well as my colleagues at thehalloffire.net. In addition, David Bratman twice read the manuscript for the Lehigh University Press, and provided indispensable suggestions for improvements.

TL: The illustrations were made by Breogan a fairly unknown Tolkien artist, how did this cooperation work?
DK: I feel incredibly blessed to have had the opportunity to work with Breogan. And not just because her illustrations are so beautiful and highly detailed. It is axiomatic that Tolkien fans all have our own individual visions of how the people and places in his universe look. And yet to a very great extent, Breogan's illustrations seem to be taken directly from my own mind. I still can't get over just how accurately they capture my own imagination of how the scenes depicted should look. It has surpassed my wildest expectations.     Voronwë leading Tuor from Vinyamar, the ancient dwelling of Turgon. By Anushka M. Courtesy of the artist.

TL: This book must have meant a lot of research? How long did it take to make this book?

DK: It did take a lot of research. The initial process of tracing the source material paragraph by paragraph took about 8 months. It then took another 3 or 4 months to prepare the initial draft of the manuscript. After I submitted that to Lehigh University Press they had David Bratman read the manuscript, and he provided some extensive suggestions for revising the manuscript. That required an extensive rewrite that took an additional 3 months or so. Then, after it was accepted for publication, it has required additional work over the course of the past year as a result of reviewing the copyediting, and the page proofs. The final big (and very important!) task was preparing the Index. All told, it will have been almost exactly three years from the time I first began the project to the time that it is available for purchase.

TL: How long did it take Breogan to illustrate it and make the fabulous cover?

DK: I can't really answer that with specificity. But I can say that each illustration took a long time to complete, because they are all so extraordinarily detailed. And the cover illustration perhaps most of all. It is beautiful, isn't it?

TL: I read the book has not been endorsed by the Tolkien Estate, do you now hope that you will somehow be asked by Christopher Tolkien to work further on the topic?

DK: I would certainly be honored if he did so, but I can't say that I expect it to happen. I do want to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Christopher Tolkien, and gratitude to him for his extraordinary efforts to bring the full scope of his father's work to light as much as possible.

TL: What are your expectations for this book?

DK: I honestly don't know what to expect. I do hope, however, that it helps gives people a greater appreciation for and understanding of the work of both J.R.R and Christopher Tolkien. And that it perhaps helps to open the door to further _Silmarillion_ scholarship.

TL: The book should be available already through Amazon, when do you think it will be shipped out?

DK: According to my publisher, it should be available for shipping from Amazon no later than mid- to late-March. So very soon!

TL: A final question, are there any plans for other Tolkien related publications?

DK: I plan to submit a paper for presentation at the upcoming Mythopoeic Society conference, expanding on my discussion of the Second Prophecy of Mandos in _Arda Reconstructed_. Beyond that, there are a couple of subjects that I am interested in exploring in depth, but nothing that I am prepared to talk about at this point


Can I Interest You In A Comfy London Apartment At 221B Baker St.?

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#43 11/03/2009 13:05:54

Foradan
Mollet de plomb
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Date d'inscription: 13/05/2002
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Merci, c'était instructif : c'est donc une analyse du "Silmarillion publié" à l'aune des autres textes publiés (HOME, les enfants de Húrin...), il ne comprend donc ni les textes inédits de la Bodleian, ni ceux de la collection privée de Christopher Tolkien (non plus que ses connaissances intellectuelles propres).

Le but est donc bien d'étudier le travail d'édition qui a fait naître le Silmarillion tel que nous le connaissons.

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#44 11/03/2009 18:20:08

alice
Ta'veren
Date d'inscription: 27/07/2008
Messages: 220

Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Pour moi c'est les anneaux de pouvoir mais je doit avouer que je n'ai pas lu tout le Silmarillion rougi


Celui qui regarde du dehors a travers une fenêtre ouverte ne voit jamais autant de chose que celui qui regarde une fenêtre fermée

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#45 07/05/2009 14:37:13

Akallabeth
At work...
Lieu: Sur mon clavier
Date d'inscription: 26/03/2009
Messages: 2663

Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Ait voté pour le Quenta rien que pour le duel Fingolfin vs Morgoth starwars !! trop la classe ce Fingolfin!!


"The Golden Crane flies to Tarmon Gaidon!"

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#46 07/06/2011 16:45:14

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

*Et Númenor surgit du fond de la grande mer*
Hop, résurgence de sujet pour replacer deux liens qui datent au point que le forum a conservé une vieille vieille direction.

arrow La fiche de présentation très résumée
et
arrow Essai d'intertextualité alias "pourquoi faut-il lire le silmarillion pour comprendre les réfèrences mystérieuses de Bilbo et du Seigneur des Anneaux ?"

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#47 08/06/2011 15:57:16

Akallabeth
At work...
Lieu: Sur mon clavier
Date d'inscription: 26/03/2009
Messages: 2663

Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Foradan a écrit:

*Et Númenor surgit du fond de la grande mer*

...j'aime quand tu me cites... tongue


"The Golden Crane flies to Tarmon Gaidon!"

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#48 08/06/2011 16:16:44

Dark Schneider
Cultiste de l'huitre bleu
Lieu: 91
Date d'inscription: 22/07/2003
Messages: 1003

Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

foradan a écrit:

I 12 Dans leur fuite vers le gué de Bruinen, les hobbits sont secourus par Glorfindel (le Chef de la Maison de la Fleur d’Or de Gondolin).

Marrant ça. Il y a quelques années je crois avoir lut quelque part que le Glorfindel du Silmarillion et celui du SDA n'étaient que des homonymes... par contre je suis incapable de dire où j'ai lut ça.


Lecture en cours :

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#49 08/06/2011 21:00:07

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Ce texte est ancien, il faudra que je le reprenne pour exposer "le syndrome Glorfindel" ou comment justifier que deux elfes portent le même nom, il y a de la matière à discussion.

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#50 08/06/2011 22:55:05

Nariel
Chasseresse de dragons
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Date d'inscription: 04/12/2010
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

J'avais même lu que les Valar l'avaient ressuscité o_o' Il est vraiment problématique ce Glorfindel happy (il se serait appelé Robert on se serait pas questionné autant)

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#51 09/06/2011 00:21:09

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Il y avait eu discussion à l'époque arrow http://www.elbakin.net/forum/viewtopic. … 377#p48377 et cette citation pour compléter

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

sur http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/glorfindel.html

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#52 09/06/2011 12:13:12

Dark Schneider
Cultiste de l'huitre bleu
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Date d'inscription: 22/07/2003
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Compliqué...donc à la base ils n'ont clairement rien à voir, ce sont juste des homonymes, puis finalement ça ne plaisait pas à Tolkien qui a décidé que le Glorfindel du SDA était bien la réincarnation de celui de Gondolin.


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#53 09/06/2011 12:20:39

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Compliqué oui parce qu'au moment de faire paraitre le SDA, le silmarillion était dans les cartons, et ce n'est que plus tard que Tolkien a cherché une cohérence entre ces noms, d'où l'hypothèse du retour d'un Glorfindel revenu de cavernes de Mandos...

Une des belles énigmes dont même les elfes n'ont pas la réponse, et après tant d'années entre ces deux vies, même Glorfindel pourrait avoir oublié.

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#54 10/06/2011 22:51:31

Elendil Voronda
Sedai
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Date d'inscription: 19/02/2010
Messages: 148
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Dark Schneider a écrit:

Compliqué...donc à la base ils n'ont clairement rien à voir, ce sont juste des homonymes, puis finalement ça ne plaisait pas à Tolkien qui a décidé que le Glorfindel du SDA était bien la réincarnation de celui de Gondolin.

Négatif, Tolkien avait envisagé un lien dès le début, même si l'idée qu'ils soient un seul et même personnage ne lui vint que plus tard. Je renvoie notamment à RS, p. 214, alors qu'Aragorn était encore nommé Trotter et Frodo Bingo :

Tolkien a écrit:

Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.

Quand à l'éventuelle perte de mémoire, je n'y crois pas une seconde. Déjà, nul ne connaît la durée exacte du séjour des Elfes chez Mandos (Glorfindel était déjà de retour en Terre du Milieu au Deuxième Âge), les rares allusions aux Elfes qui en sont sortis ne parlent nullement de choses de ce genre (on peut au moins citer les cas de Finrod, de Fíriel et de Lúthien) et je rappelle enfin que la mémoire des Elfes était censée être quasi-eidétique (citons WJ, p. 396 et PM, p. 401, entre autres).

Enfin, un petit essai tolkiendilien sur la question, pour ceux qui souhaitent approfondir : Le cas Glorfindel.


« Nēri ur natsi nostalen māre ar vāro naltur an ōmi karmar — ulqe nūsimar »
Sī qente Feanor n‧istalēra

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#55 10/06/2011 23:02:11

Dark Schneider
Cultiste de l'huitre bleu
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Date d'inscription: 22/07/2003
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Elendil Voronda a écrit:

à RS, p. 214,
citons WJ, p. 396 et PM, p. 401

??


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#56 11/06/2011 00:39:41

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

History of Middle-earth partiellement traduit en français
Return of the Shadow, (home 6)
War of the jewels (home 11)
People of middle-earth (home 12), la pagination dépendra évidemment de l'édition

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#57 11/06/2011 10:46:02

Dark Schneider
Cultiste de l'huitre bleu
Lieu: 91
Date d'inscription: 22/07/2003
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

J'ai les 2 1ers tomes, je vois que le 4ème et le 5ème ne sont toujours pas parut en poche chez nous... Je suis étonné que la publication en français n'avance pas plus vite que ça, je sais que le public ciblé est plus restreint que celui du SDA, mais quand même!

Intéressant ce site, je ne connaissais pas, merci pour le lien.


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#58 11/06/2011 12:01:37

Druss
Elbakinien d'Argent
Date d'inscription: 27/05/2007
Messages: 473

Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Forcément, si tu attends les poches, c'est long, alors que chez Bourgois, la parution suit la rythme d'un volume par an.

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#59 11/06/2011 13:43:23

Dark Schneider
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Oui mais je n'aime pas les grands formats, à quelques exceptions ils sont trop cher, pas pratique, et encombrant.


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#60 11/06/2011 23:45:52

Foradan
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Re: [le Silmarillion] Votre passage préféré

Dark Schneider a écrit:

J'ai les 2 1ers tomes, je vois que le 4ème et le 5ème ne sont toujours pas parut en poche chez nous... Je suis étonné que la publication en français n'avance pas plus vite que ça, je sais que le public ciblé est plus restreint que celui du SDA, mais quand même!

Intéressant ce site, je ne connaissais pas, merci pour le lien.

Faut pas être étonné, le traducteur n'a pas que cette série à faire, et l'éditeur doit aussi s'y retrouver. Sans compter que l'actualité de Tolkien tourne autour de l'anniversaire de la parution de Bilbo, ce qui met certains projets en priorité.

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